Rich and Kendra founded their “enough!” podcast to provide a platform for survivors to speak out and to shed light on the problem of sexual assault in the music industry. Kendra asked Rich to be her podcast partner, in part, because he was such a good listener. The key to being an ally for assault survivors, Rich says, is listening compassionately without judgment and without trying to offer solutions. Listening, Kendra says, sometimes means being willing and able to absorb “an emotional, passionate trauma dump.”
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Shawn (01:00):
Hey everybody. Thank you for joining the podcast. My name is Shawn Vincent. I'm the moderator of Unsilenced Survivors. I'm lucky to work with attorney Karen Barth Menzies. She's the founder of Unsilenced Survivors. Today, our guests are Rich and Kendra. They're the founders of the “enough!” podcast that sheds light on sexual assault in the music industry. They are a platform for survivors to speak out. We were on their show not long ago. We're lucky to have them as our guests today. One of the things that we're going to talk about is the importance of listening as the first step in advocacy. It is important when survivors find the courage to speak out, that they have an ally they can talk to, who will listen without reaction and without judgment. Here's our conversation with Rich and Kendra.
Karen (01:58):
We've been trying to figure out some ways that we can, as you both know, one of the reasons … one of the motivations of our firm is to give a voice to survivors. And because it's so important not only for the survivor who's speaking up, but also other survivors to hear it. So how do you do that? How do you do that in the context of “litigation isn't going to be enough.” You need to do more, and then learning about you and how you've done it and how you've gone forward and listening to your work, it's right there. I mean, allowing survivors to come forward anonymously if they want to. And the result of that and the format that you use, the conversation that you have with them, that we've heard too and listened. First of all, I love how current everything is. It's almost like … it's not a news podcast … but just so relevant. It feels so relevant. And then you have voices of other people speaking on things that feel relevant to everybody at the same time, and you get these different perspectives, and it's just a really great, rich way to talk about and experience and hear about what others have experienced.
Shawn (03:22):
Rich, I saw you respond to the “current news” comment that Karen made. What was your thought there?
Rich (03:30):
Well, we do try to keep up to date on what is happening, obviously in the world, not just when it comes to societal issues and stuff, but also Kendra and I have this joke that our group chat is a lot of sharing articles about, “Oh, who has been … had charges filed for abuse or assault?” Which celebrity had a bunch of people come out in a New York Times article or a Rolling Stone article or a Spin article? So we're always just something out there in that regard, and we just kind of always try to stay on top of it and put things out in a way where people who might not necessarily have the time or energy, because as we all know, this is a lot when you're dealing with sexual abuse and assault. We can put things out in a way that people can just ingest it at their leisure, or it's not going to be an hour-long thing. It's like, “Hey, here's 15 minutes on this person or this event,” and just sort of as a way to make it a little more easily digestible, I guess.
Shawn (05:02):
Well, and Kendra, I think there's so much news out there and there's so many sources. There's a real need for trusted curators, and I think that you guys have become trusted curators to give a broader perspective on the sexual assault-related stories that are in the news.
Kendra (05:25):
That's very kind of you. I know six people in our reviews that are negative comments that feel otherwise, but other than that, thank you. Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the things that has become so interesting is that when Rich and I started this back in, what was it … 2021, now … I've been thinking about it and coming to the conclusion that I had to do something like this since 2019, but as we've rolled through the last years, we I think have put a lot of trust in each other and it's grown, and a lot of, as we've journeyed through all of this, our points of view on things has not only expanded, but also somewhat changed. Obviously, our ideas are still the same. Our goal, our message, all of that, still the same, but it's become so much more rich and full as we've really looked at this from all ends, from all these different situations.
(06:26):
I mean, there's so many different celebrities and artists that we've covered in our subtext episodes, which are the ones that Rich was talking about more so the shorter 15 or so minutes – non-guest – that we do on the first Wednesday of every month. We have a whole run of celebrity episodes there, and by looking at all those cases and just kind of giving that summary, we have to ingest everything that we could possibly read about it and then regurgitate everything in a 15 to 20-minute span. And you really, I don't want to say that we are getting into the mentality of some of these people, but you're starting to see the similarities. You're starting to see maybe the angles looking at their background and where they came from and what their family structure was like, or what relationships they had and how they're imparting that trauma on other people.
Karen (07:15):
And I think that, Shawn, we've talked about, we want the momentum to keep going for #MeToo. It's not something that happened in the past. It needs to keep going, and we need to keep the conversation going. That's one of our purposes. And how do you keep that conversation going? How do you learn the right vocabulary to use? And for us, we've talked about, it's really listening to survivors. That's how you're able to get people, and I really do love the dynamic between both of you as well, because Rich, you'll say things from a male's perspective that we don't always necessarily see or hear, and you'll be self-deprecating about it or make a joke or whatever. But it's very personal.
Kendra (07:57):
Hey, I usually make the jokes. But yes, there is definitely a duality to it, and that was one of the reasons why when I first started this, I thought about it for a really long time. Rich and I have known each other for a long time, and we were friends having conversations at two in the morning being like, did you hear about this person? After everyone else went to sleep in the house or everyone left the bar, we would end up at the end of the night having these really deep conversations. Why does this keep happening? Why is this happening? This really shouldn't be happening. Have you seen these things happening? I've experienced these things happening. And so I realized early on that he was someone that was very, I don't know if well-versed is exactly the word, but he was willing to listen, and he was an ally of the cause.
(08:49):
And so when I decided that I wanted to do something about this, I couldn't really get it off the ground properly, and I really needed someone else to help me. And he was obviously the only choice in my mind. I was like, “there wouldn't be anyone else.” And I joke a lot about him being like, he's a straight white male, so you had to add him in because otherwise no one would care. But it really does, like you said, Karen, give a different alternate perspective. A lot of our guests are female or femme, and having a male, white, straight ally who's giving his point of view – as I'm kind of mansplaining for you right now, Rich – I just think it makes everything a little bit richer. No pun intended.
Shawn (09:34):
Rich. I hadn't considered the term “ally” until we were recording our podcast with Kari Krome, and I was expressing that I felt a little strange being the straight white guy on the podcast, and did I have a place there, and she told me that I was an ally and how important allies are. How long have you recognized that that's your role, and what does it mean to you?
Rich (10:03):
I think it goes back even before we were doing the podcast, and it wasn't like, it wasn't something that I necessarily like a label that I put on myself. It was something that other people had put onto me as someone who people could trust to come to with their stories or that they knew would speak out about this stuff when maybe no other straight white guys are talking about these things. Like, I'll talk about 'em like I'm not scared. Maybe a little bit …
Karen (10:47):
Kendra said it perfectly. I mean, that's not a bad thing either, but Kendra said it perfectly. The first thing you said about Rich was that he listens, and if we really want to change, this is so pervasive in society, we need all of society to do something to think about, to be aware and to listen if we're going to move forward. It can't just be half the population or people who identify and resonate. There are plenty of people out there who want to figure out ways that they can take action, and that's what Shawn and I talked about is the very first step you can take to take action is to listen, to listen to survivors and figure out and learn how to talk about this so that it's on the table. We are discussing it. We are bringing out awareness, awareness of it, and we need those allies if there's going to be any change at all.
Kendra (11:43):
Listening is a huge part of the educational process. Even if you're not going, I mean, we've made book recommendations. We ourselves are consistently reading and watching, documentary searching and article sending. As Rich talked about in our group chat. It's like the most 180 group chat that will be check out these really funny memes, and all of a sudden it's like, “Hey, did you see who got caught recently?” It's just real from one to the other. It's just all day long. But it's the easiest thing to do to educate yourself, if you're not willing or able to go out there and spend copious amounts of time scouring the internet for “how do you help?” What do you do is just to sit down and listen to other people and just absorb what they're saying. Try not to be reactive, especially because so much of this will instill a reaction in you.
(12:34):
It's made to, it's triggering, it's traumatic. It's coming from someone who is telling their story, may say things that are harmful, verbally harmful to you, because you're taking this as if this was done. They're accusing you in a way or that you've become the target of something because they're explaining this in such an emotionally passionate, it's an emotionally passionate trauma dump a lot of the time. But sitting there and listening is not only educational for you, but it also is helping them heal in a way. Because the more that they're able to talk, the more they're able to express themselves, the more they're able to feel, like with the #MeToo movement, comfortable to come forward, and the more people they see coming forward, they're going to come forward as well, or at least start to feel more comfortable in the fact that they're not standing there alone because they're not alone. So many people have had these experiences.
Shawn (13:25):
Have you been the subject of emotional trauma dump before Karen?
Karen (13:31):
Today?
Shawn (13:34):
At all? What time is it?
Kendra (13:37):
Well, I mean, you have some time today. Yeah, we can take this offline. I got some things we can talk about if you want it. Yes, yes.
Shawn (13:48):
Well, I mean, I think even that, if listeners get to hear that, then they might recognize it when someone they care about gives them an emotional trauma dump and know that that's not personal against them. It's something that they're familiar with. And so much of this is taking away the taboo and the mystery around if no one ever talks about it, then nobody knows what's common when people try to talk about it. Rich, I see you shaking your head.
Rich (14:17):
Well, I was just going to throw in there, one of the things that I learned early on is with, just as Kendra pointed out, the listening and not reacting, I can remember a couple of instances when I was younger where a female friend of mine would come to me with a story of like, “Oh, this person that we both know and are friends with did this thing.” And my initial reaction would be like, “Are you sure?” And immediately what that says is like, “Oh, I don't believe you,” because that's just my knee-jerk reaction. That was my knee-jerk reaction at the time was just like, no, that couldn't have happened. You just misread the situation or something. You misread your assault. So it's just listening and taking it in. Instead of having an immediate response to something, which sometimes all someone needs is for you to just listen to them. It's not giving advice or asking specifics about something. It's just, Hey, I just need to unload this and get this off my chest. Can you just sit and listen to me for a little bit?